tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post2726999115081843518..comments2024-01-13T20:25:06.481-05:00Comments on Imagine Uncommon Things: What I feel the need to say . . .Kim Cavenderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14749328210288624099noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-34950891201571217952008-03-24T21:43:00.000-04:002008-03-24T21:43:00.000-04:00Victoria James hit on something that I think reall...Victoria James hit on something that I think really shows a total lack of ethics. The fact that some established "artist-teachers" have stolen designs from lesser known or unknown artists, and taken full credit for them.<BR/><BR/>There is one artist who was formerly a part of a group I am in who has stolen ideas/designs from pretty much everyone in the group, and then turned around and had those designs published. I'm not talking techniques, but actual designs, sometimes exactly as the original artist did the piece or sometimes changing the color, but in all other ways the design is the same. But since the editors and general public didn't get to see the original piece, of course this person takes credit for it as their "original" design. This person now has a terrible reputation in our group, but do they care? Evidently not. Because in the outside world no one knows how much they have stolen from others and they are lauded as a successful "artist". She has been confronted many times by the people she has stolen from, but all she says is a lame, oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize my piece was so much like your's. Well now when the original artist goes to try to get THEIR work published, they look like they are copying her, when in reality it was the other way around. I mean this person has gone so far as to ask people to show her step by step how they created their design, and then turned around, copied it exactly, slapped a new name on it and called it her own. Again I am not talking about a technique, but rather exact copies of character designs. She has even sold exact replicas of other artists' work on ebay, etc. until she was threatened with copyright infringement and told to cease and desist. <BR/> <BR/>But once it's already appeared in a magazine, or on some TV show, it can't be undone, and that design is now credited to the person who stole it. And as Maureen Carlson pointed out, it's very costly to go after someone for copyright violations.<BR/><BR/>People like this have no ethics and they will continue to steal from others as long as they can get away with it, and the outside world will view them as "successful artists". But the rest of us will know the truth. This situation will go on as long as people can get away with it.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your post Kim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-21566535126535861392008-03-21T08:34:00.000-04:002008-03-21T08:34:00.000-04:00I had the best of intentions to try and keep up wi...I had the best of intentions to try and keep up with all the comments and respond to each of you if I could. Unfortunately, I got involved with other things and fell behind. I just want you all to know how much I appreciated hearing your thoughts and opinions. You've given me much to think about. I love the fact that we were able to have this discussion in such a reasonable fashion. It's given me a new perspective on many of the issues involved here. And Deb, I really appreciate your generous comments and wanted to let you know I wrote to you at the yahoo address, which was the only one I could find.Kim Cavenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14749328210288624099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-84828360030267829872008-03-19T23:00:00.000-04:002008-03-19T23:00:00.000-04:00Kim Rocks!I had the privilege of taking Kim's clas...Kim Rocks!<BR/>I had the privilege of taking Kim's class at the Vegas Carnival. She definitely created a technique that is the potato chip of polymer clay. You just can't stop making them!<BR/>At the end of the work shop I asked about sharing the technique with my guild. We discussed some of the things in the blog and what she said made so much sense. She said the difficulty is the "helpful" person who decides to turn it into a tutorial and stick it on YouTube. Then she'd need to develop a whole new technique to teach. After that she gave permission to share.<BR/>Well I want you all to know that we are taking it very seriously and though we have started recording our workshops this one will not be taped. Everyone in the guild is promising not to share the technique and anything they produce is considered a Kim Cavender inspired piece. <BR/>We see this as a generous gift and we hope to one day be able to bring her up to Canada to teach at a future conference.<BR/>If Kim had said no we would have honoured that. It is her right as a teacher, currently teaching a technique, to ask not to be copied. For those that haven't had the privilege of meeting Kim she is the soul of generosity with her knowledge and skills.<BR/>I'm sure this is difficult for her because she'd rather just share everything, but to preserve her as a teacher we need her to earn a living. <BR/>For myself, I'm already saving up for the next time that I can take another class with her.<BR/>She has my respect and admiration, and she's a heck of a lot of fun!<BR/>Member in good standing of the Kim Cavender fan club, Deb GroomDeb G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09691435068812934867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-35520760579313308742008-03-19T18:18:00.000-04:002008-03-19T18:18:00.000-04:00Way to go Kim!!! You said it all very well... som...Way to go Kim!!! You said it all very well... some things to ponder....<BR/><BR/>I think that Maureen said it very well: <BR/><BR/> " I believe that once the words or work are out of our mouths or hands, that they are out there for the world to see and hear and do. So we'd better be sure we're ready to share before we share...."<BR/><BR/>Teaching means that you are teaching others to do what you do.... You should expect your students to recreate what you have taught them and for them to share it with others.... that is what teachers do. I would be on cloud nine if that happened to me... that means I did a wonderful job teaching my class!! LOL!!<BR/><BR/>for me,really, I see this a non issue... sad, but true.... (I feel that it has more to do with Greed then it does about the ART. I know that it sounds crazy,but really, why does this even matter? why does there have to be so much ownership in this field of art? I view this no differently then holding a pencil and drawling - reproductions, copies, you can call it what you want... either way it is an art form.... and something is/was being learned in the process... we all start with a bar of clay, but what we do in the end is so very different, even when it appears to be the same.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-33672069311818820562008-03-19T17:13:00.000-04:002008-03-19T17:13:00.000-04:00Once again, your post was engaging and thoughtfull...Once again, your post was engaging and thoughtfully done. If anyone thinks less of you for it, I'm sure it's not anyone that will matter much, and I for one applaud your taking the time to tackle this topic.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that one could always be safe when remembering the Golden Rule. I guess Mom was right a lot of the time after all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-18844030072634743662008-03-19T16:27:00.000-04:002008-03-19T16:27:00.000-04:00I'm sorry, I didn't mean to post a comment here. I...I'm sorry, I didn't mean to post a comment here. I thought I was on another blog.Ilenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066998613253259240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-46597973011494286162008-03-19T16:25:00.000-04:002008-03-19T16:25:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ilenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066998613253259240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-50288295061588696392008-03-19T13:16:00.000-04:002008-03-19T13:16:00.000-04:00Great subject and posts. I think the sentence I li...Great subject and posts. I think the sentence I like the best is "yours to use and not to share". I think we tend to be a bit too sharing in our guilds. But most of us just want to promote the artist and their books, videos and classes.Trinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18113788035016662355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-66501314649117342122008-03-19T13:14:00.000-04:002008-03-19T13:14:00.000-04:00Hi All,Such a lively conversation! And I love thi...Hi All,<BR/>Such a lively conversation! And I love this topic.<BR/><BR/>I have a little different take on it, though. I believe that once the words or work are out of our mouths or hands, that they are out there for the world to see and hear and do. So we'd better be sure we're ready to share before we share. Even if it IS for money. Getting paid for it doesn't necessarily put our stamp of ownership on a topic or a technique. Nor should it. Afterall, we were all influenced by someone, even if that someone never taught or wrote about their ideas.<BR/><BR/>Oh, yes. We can protect some things with a copyright, but it's only as enforceable as the money we are willing to spend to enforce it. (That also was in the presentation by Thomas Mann at Synergy.)And, I might add, our hope and trust in loyalty and respect.<BR/><BR/>I think that this is reality because the world is large and those who are closely connected to us enough to feel that kinship that is necessary for a really strict hands-off policy are few - relatively speaking, that is. Just think of the size of the world and it's creative potential!<BR/><BR/>But, that said, let me speak a bit about the flip side of the discussion. I hire only experienced teachers to teach classes at Maureen Carlson's Center for Creative Arts in Jordan, Minnesota, USA. I hire the best in a given area of design or technique(though I've by no means gotten all the way through that quite lengthy and ever-growing list as of yet!!!!). In the 10 years that I've been in business at "Maureen's", we've offered classes (oftentimes for return engagements)with Lindly Haunani, Dayle Doroshow, Katherine Dewey, Sarah Shriver, Donna Kato, Lynne Anne Schwarzenberg, Patricia Kimle, Diane Keeler, Barbara Kobe, Victoria Hughes, Christi Friesen, Jeff Dever, Linda Bernstein, Val Daniels, Robin Aronson, elinor peace bailey and, yes, myself. <BR/><BR/>I hire those who are grounded and experienced in a specific technique rather than those who just know the basics of how to do something. I hire those with a reputation for excellence in their craft because they bring a wealth of experience to the topic that cannot be matched by a narrow summary of the techniques. Oftentimes the singular opportunity to view the class samples, "up close and personal", of an experienced teacher is in and of itself worth the price of the admission to class! <BR/><BR/>So, can you learn from a student of an instructor? Yes, and you probably will, and have. Be honest about it. Haven't we all asked, just maybe, one little question about how someone did something? We're all curious, after all. That's why we became artists. We like to problem solve and we like to do it with color and form and shape and texture and light and ... But will we have the same broadly enriching experience as we would if we heard and saw the information from the original source? No way. We get what we pay for. I know, because I've watched all the before-mentioned teachers in action.<BR/><BR/>That said, I'd also like to chime in on the subject of instructors being inspired by their students. Happens all the time! I know I've seen wonderful things in my classes - things that I've really wanted to rip off, but haven't. Though I know I've been influenced. There's so much talent out there. <BR/><BR/>We really are all in this creative world together, seeing, hearing, feeling, being influenced. And, once influenced, like Julie P recounted from Thomas Mann's talk at Synergy, we can't send it back. <BR/><BR/>I know that sometimes it's so darn hard to step back and listen to the sound of my own voice that I get a bit lost. So off I go to find that alone place where I can get in touch with those images and questions that are percolating inside that brain and heart and soul that's named Maureen. It really isn't exactly the same take on the world as anyone else's. And that's true of all of us. We're uniquely ourselves and yet,at the same time, we're all in this together. Finding that balance point between influence and voice is quite a trip.<BR/>Maureen CarlsonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-74628186623016235552008-03-19T12:59:00.000-04:002008-03-19T12:59:00.000-04:00Vicki, that clarifies the point very well for me -...Vicki, that clarifies the point very well for me - thank you! And I agree with you :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-9053122151255195532008-03-19T11:22:00.000-04:002008-03-19T11:22:00.000-04:00Hey Polkadot, I appreciate your query. I'm not rea...Hey Polkadot, I appreciate your query. I'm not really a word person, believe it or not, and frequently assume that people know where I'm coming from with something. No, absolutely do I not mean that newbies need to re-invent the wheel. Quite to the contrary. I personally believe that mature artists have an obligation to teach, which is why I spend a lot of my time teaching, both formally and informally. What I meant was that the process of searching for the information is often as important as getting the information because it teaches you how to look, how to sift and makes you value it when you finally find it. In other words, I feel the artists associated with particular techniques should be allowed the opportunity to teach it and, if they do not, the student needs to hunt it down and show the artist that there is a desire to know this information and the student is willing to pay for a workshop, demo, video, dvd, whatever in order to learn it. Then, if the originating (I hate that word) artist still does not want to be forthcoming, reverse engineering is fair game and whoever comes up with their own version has the opportunity to be the first to teach that version. Ok, now I'm probably clear as mud. I think I'll go paint - actually, my paintings are probably incomprehensible too! LOL!VickieAFCAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12913024446086807639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-1102988227683466682008-03-19T08:04:00.000-04:002008-03-19T08:04:00.000-04:00Kim.....well said. I applaud the way you have app...Kim.....well said. I applaud the way you have approached this issue, that can sometimes lead to heated discussions. I was nodding my head as I read and when I finished I felt the need to stand and clap. <BR/>Learn. Repect. Create. Evolve. Be Passionate.<BR/><BR/>Cooooeeee from Australia<BR/>Lisa, LillyBriarlillybriarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17382711124720436972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-71395017500384050172008-03-19T06:44:00.000-04:002008-03-19T06:44:00.000-04:00Dear Kim, reading your post made us all think abou...Dear Kim, reading your post made us all think about this issue again and it's a good reminder. I wish i had a better english to express my thoughts too on such a serious sunject. Since Israel polymer clay community is rather small, we try and keep things in order, but once in a while this matter rise up.<BR/>thank you for sharing this with us.<BR/>Iris.Iris Mishlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00959390137773980399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-9982352288089271392008-03-19T02:57:00.000-04:002008-03-19T02:57:00.000-04:00Kim, I'll join the chorus and agree - great post. ...Kim, <BR/><BR/>I'll join the chorus and agree - great post. Very difficult to express well without sounding like sour grapes - and you did it well. <BR/><BR/>As a definite amateur who's been fortunate enough to sell a few pieces, I really haven't had to think about any of this much. I'm disabled, nearly completely housebound, so my learning curve has been entirely dependent upon those wonderful artists like you and Donna Kato and so many others who've shared their talents on television and in books and in online tutorials. It's unlikely I'll ever attend a workshop, to my regret!<BR/><BR/>Even still, when I see someone doing something exciting and new (at least to me) I can't wait to get my hands in my clay and try that technique. Usually, I end up with a pokey copy of the artist's sample - no one else could want it! But Ive learned a technique. That's the way it should be, unless I'm very much mistaken. <BR/><BR/>For thsoe pieces that I've managed to come up with that definitely rely on the technique Donna Kato's tutorial taught me, it's so painless to just say that! <BR/><BR/>But lately, to my great surprise, I've actually found myself combining techniques learned from you and Lisa Pavelka and Judy Dunn, etc., in one piece, to come up with something that is really MINE! How exciting is that!? I wouldn't be able to clearly define which of you was the major influence for these pieces. I'm just a grateful beginner, proud to come up with anything worth sharing! :-) <BR/><BR/>My point is, I'm confident that my story is exactly what you're NOT writing about. I'm not trying to claim anything for my own that someone else has developed. Once I combine your or Donna's or two other artists' techniques, it IS mine, which is as it should be. <BR/><BR/>Having said that, keep writing books and making videos, all you leaders of this pack! For people like me who'll never get to a workshop, we live for those windows into your workshops, which would remain forever unattainable for us without them! <BR/><BR/>One final thing, just to clarify something. I recently emailed a 'Net friend when I learned she'd been to a Kathleen Dustin worship, and asked her a question about a technique. I felt confident in doing that because I'd emailed Kathleen a while back and asked if she planned to write a book or do a video, explaining my situation. She told me to contact someone I knew who'd attended her workshop, that she was comfortable with her students sharing. But I recognize that Kathleen, for her own reasons, is the exception. I've never done that with anyone else, and can't imagine doing so. <BR/><BR/>I love your blog, btw, except...<BR/><BR/>You don't post often enough! :-)<BR/><BR/>me<>< (Cindy Matthews)<BR/><BR/>PS The bales arrived today. It was so exciting to get mail from Kim Cavendar!Silly... 'Mahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15362030189636374643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-70876315075831697132008-03-18T22:36:00.000-04:002008-03-18T22:36:00.000-04:00Bravo! Excellently written article about a difficu...Bravo! Excellently written article about a difficult subject. You're<BR/>right, others have posted similar thoughts but none as straightforward<BR/>as yours -- thanks, Kim!<BR/>BobbiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-75664259381321564332008-03-18T22:15:00.000-04:002008-03-18T22:15:00.000-04:00"Because staying behind that locked door benefits ..."Because staying behind that locked door benefits no one, and is ultimately a loss for the entire community."<BR/><BR/>Well said, Julie P!Kim Cavenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14749328210288624099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-17759748944043456182008-03-18T22:13:00.000-04:002008-03-18T22:13:00.000-04:00Hi Victoria. It goes without saying that no one s...Hi Victoria. It goes without saying that no one should have that kind of thing happen to them and respect is a two-way street, right?Kim Cavenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14749328210288624099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-8078128893668124432008-03-18T21:10:00.000-04:002008-03-18T21:10:00.000-04:00Thomas Mann said something at Synergy that I vivid...Thomas Mann said something at Synergy that I vividly remember. I’m hoping I heard correctly, as I was rushing in and out of the the gallery at the time…but as I recall it went something like this: “An artist told a friend of his that he should not be allowed in his friends studio, because he would steal ideas. Not that he wanted to…but that he could not help it AS HIS EYES WERE OPEN”.<BR/><BR/>Whether I heard correctly or not, this is so incredibly true. We are passively inspired each and every day by the things we see, touch and sense. We can also be actively inspired through workshops, videos and book/magazine tutorials. As artists – lovers of color, texture, shape – we are driven to put that inspiration into physical form.<BR/><BR/>That’s not a bad thing. Learning through workshops can culminate in a cross-pollination of techniques (or even media) that is refreshing and unique. Or it can trigger the “what if?” ideas that lead in entirely new directions.<BR/><BR/>Speaking personally, I will be eternally indebted to artists Victoria Hughes and Julia Sober, and I am happy to give them credit for that inspiration. Did I copy their work? Absolutely! I did my best to emulate exactly what I saw in both Victoria’s video and Julia’s workshop, as that was how I learned. I liken the process to having someone unlock the door for you and then stepping aside. It’s up to you to push that door open and walk off in your own direction.<BR/><BR/>Now the table is turned – I am the one sharing knowledge and (hopefully) unlocking doors. Do I hope that students will credit me when they emulate my work? Yes. Do I hope that they will show me the respect of keeping my materials for their own use and not disseminating? You bet. Do I hope that they will walk through that door and find their own unique path? Most definitely. <BR/><BR/>Because staying behind that locked door benefits no one, and is ultimately a loss for the entire community.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-19191454523085193102008-03-18T18:58:00.000-04:002008-03-18T18:58:00.000-04:00It is not always the student who copies the teache...It is not always the student who copies the teachers work.<BR/> In fact, it is much more successful and harder to substantiate, when it is the established artist who copies an unknown person’s work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-63884865954567552722008-03-18T18:29:00.000-04:002008-03-18T18:29:00.000-04:00I really am starting to understand things a bit mo...I really am starting to understand things a bit more from a teacher's view. <BR/><BR/>Seeing things from other's perspective helps...how might we feel in their shoes?<BR/><BR/>Just a wonderful, thought-provoking post Kim, thank you so much for putting it up! <BR/><BR/>BarbBarb Fajardohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14034659671297516667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-8923003657263298632008-03-18T18:05:00.000-04:002008-03-18T18:05:00.000-04:00Well said Kim. I do agree with Scott in that, unfo...Well said Kim. I do agree with Scott in that, unfortunately, a lot of people causing the problem probably lack the ability to respect other people, artists or otherwise, anyway. Or, they simply don't care, which is probably worse. Either way, I feel this is a bumpy, up hill journey trying to eraticate this problem. Maybe if everyone continues to push the issue and lay blame on those specifically guilty....Tammyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06372091926912356782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-29673616961859976412008-03-18T16:57:00.000-04:002008-03-18T16:57:00.000-04:00Hi Kim, I applaud you for the time spent finding...Hi Kim, <BR/> I applaud you for the time spent finding those words.<BR/> The only comment I would like to add is that,<BR/>unfortunately "respect" and "values" are not something one can teach to those who lack them.<BR/> It's a difficult topic with all sorts of little twists and turns. So hard to know when to draw the line as to what is worthy of credit or inspiration.<BR/> I could go on and on listing examples but it would all be time lost on those who lack the morals in the first place. <BR/> Great post Kim, Thank you!<BR/>ScottScotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17804589621827615813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-65037028284436772402008-03-18T15:02:00.000-04:002008-03-18T15:02:00.000-04:00Vicki, I like what you have to say, but I wonder i...Vicki, I like what you have to say, but I wonder if you could clarify this statement:<BR/><BR/>"Any legitimate ARTIST is interested in their own journey and is happy to let newbies do their own legwork to get to where they're going."<BR/><BR/>It sounds like you are saying that legitimate artists shouldn't also feel the pull to teach what they know; that newbies can figure it all out for themselves. Is this what you meant?<BR/><BR/>While I agree that an individual doesn't become a true artist without embarking on some kind of personal journey with his materials, I don't see that it should be necessary for him to re-invent the wheel to get there. Good teachers who are excited for their students to explore new techniques and ideas with them are a vital aspect to the vibrancy of an artistic community, IMHO.<BR/><BR/>If I have misunderstood your point, please forgive me!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-7219549504562422902008-03-18T14:33:00.000-04:002008-03-18T14:33:00.000-04:00Dear ANONYMOUS,That was not the point of my post, ...Dear ANONYMOUS,<BR/>That was not the point of my post, at all. This is NOT about being required to "give credit" to someone everytime you make something. And to answer your question, no, I don't believe you need to give credit to Monet when you paint an impressionist style painting any more than I believe you need to credit Judith Skinner everytime you make a Skinner blend . ALL I'm saying is that IF you are directly inspired by someone else's work to make something that looks just like theirs, it's polite to acknowledge that fact.Kim Cavenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14749328210288624099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984589010445976392.post-19177553195747186972008-03-18T12:27:00.000-04:002008-03-18T12:27:00.000-04:00Vickie,Thanks for jumping in! I really appreciate...Vickie,<BR/>Thanks for jumping in! I really appreciate what you said and I'm sorry you had to stop for breath, I would have liked to have heard even more. LOL! You made some wonderful points and have given me much more to think about. I may have to go look up that book.Kim Cavenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14749328210288624099noreply@blogger.com